As from April 2013 my Journey in Investing is to create Retirement Income for Life till 80 years old for two over market cycles of Bull and Bear.

Welcome to Ministry of Wealth!

This blog is authored by an old multi-bagger blue chips stock picker uncle from HDB heartland!

"The market is not your mother. It consists of tough men and women who look for ways to take money away from you instead of pouring milk into your mouth." - Dr. Alexander Elder

"For the things we have to learn before we can do them, we learn by doing them." - Aristotle

It is here where I share with you how I did it! FREE Education in stock market wisdom.

Think Investing as Tug of War - Read more? Click and scroll down



Important Notice and Attention: If you are looking for such ideas; here is the wrong blog to visit.

Value Investing
Dividend/Income Investing
Technical Analysis and Charting
Stock Tips

Tuesday, 31 October 2017

Timing The Market And Time In The Market Will Make The Difference!


You don't believe. 

Never mind!

I believe!


Monday, 30 October 2017

On Blog Leave from 2 to 8 Nov 2017 : Seoul


First time visiting South Korea - Seoul

Huwon Secret Garden

Secret Rear Garden Of Changdeokgung Palace


Before 08:59 hrs, Uncle8888 has began to start reloading the landing page to book; but failed to load the booking page (highly congested). 

When he managed to load the booking page; but it was already fully booked! 

Bo pian. He has to continue to try again the next day at 08:59.

Finally; on the 4th day; he managed to book it!







Sunday, 29 October 2017

2007 vs 2017: The Lost Decade!!!


Greed, Fear, Ignorance, and Hope

                 
Ignorance in 2000 of becoming rich from investing in the stock market.

Greed in 2007 of making more and more money from the stock market

Fear in 2017 of losing back hard earned money in the stock market!

Hope to do much better in the next market cycle


















Over Decades As Retail Investors Over Market Cycles


Those who made it big in the stock market seriously has this; but they seldom, prefer or rather don't want to talk about it! 

May be talking about it won't made them look sexy and brilliant in the eyes of average retail investors.

Money management is NOT just about position sizing! 

It is also about your account size!





Saturday, 28 October 2017

One Uncommon Act Of Kindness! (6)


Read? One Uncommon Act Of Kindness! (6)

This act will shame all those who occupied on Reserved Seat in MRT trains either "pretend" sleeping or grossly focusing on their hand-phone until non-awareness of the surrounding!

This small boy gave up his non Reserved seat to Uncle8888!























How much do we really know about our investments?


Read? How much do we really know about our investments?


A natural progression of this logic was to look at my own investments and potential investments and realizing how little I know about them. A mid-level manager at any company I own almost certainly knows more about the company and industry landscape than I ever will. That’s because I can never replicate working in the business and industry every single day.

One of the biggest things that is almost impossible for an investor to know is a CEO’s inner motivation—yet it’s one of the most important. Reading The CEO Pay Machine earlier this year really drove home how bad virtually all compensation packages are. First, a CEO gets paid a high salary no matter how well the business and stock performs. On top of that, they are gifted stock options that have a ton of upside and no downside. Because of this, it’s damn near impossible for a CEO to be truly aligned with public shareholders. Knowing that, most investors spend time trying to triangulate what the CEO’s motivations are and how shareholder friendly they are, but at the end of the day it’s just a guess. Thomas Peterffy at Interactive Brokers has a long history of being shareholder friendly, focusing on the long-term, etc, but that doesn’t guarantee anything about the future. There are plenty of examples (Bernie Madoff, Tom Petters) of people who were highly respected for many years until they turned out to be frauds.


All of the above is why I’ve actively tried to stop using words like “always” and “never.” Talking in absolutes in a world that is grey is rarely correct. I’ve also tried to be more careful when I’m talking about a company’s future. Though I’m certainly guilty of it, it’s an exercise in intellectual dishonesty to say a company will accomplish something next year, as opposed to saying they should or hopefully will accomplish that same thing.


Read? Less Analyzing. More Investing - CW8888

Less Analyzing. More Investing - CW8888


May be after reading the above article; you may have some clues into why Uncle8888 thinks like that arh!







Friday, 27 October 2017

Reading From Different Investment Bloggers May Cause You More Confusion, Doubt, Greed And Fear!!!


Do we bloggers aware that we may be unintentionally or "intentionally" causing some silent readers more confusion, doubts, greed and fear!



Thursday, 26 October 2017

Lucky Or Unlucky When You First Get Started Investing Over Market Cycles (2)


Read? Lucky Or Unlucky When You First Get Started Investing Over Market Cycles

Just last Monday at kopi session; Uncle8888 told one Starfish who has been passive investor in unit trusts for six years and thinking of switching over to become active investor. We also talk about element of market timing and luck factor.

Uncle8888 told him if he wish to test his luck in the stock market he can switch now to become active investor when STI is at 3,XXX.

Get it?






Wednesday, 25 October 2017

The Secret Behind Buy And Hold And Then Laughing To The Bank Revealed! (2)


Read? The Secret Behind Buy And Hold And Then Laughing To The Bank Revealed!

This morning Uncle8888 bumped into his ex-colleague who has left his company long time ago.

Ex-colleague : Heard you retired?

CW: Ya. Last Sep.

blah blah

Ex-colleague:  Heard you very good at investing?

blah blah

Ex-colleague: How is the market?

CW: Banks and properties are cheonging! DBS at record high!

Ex-colleague: Sianz! I sold my DBS @ $14+

blah blah

CW: I am still holding some DBS bought at $7+ since SARS time.

blah blah

Ex-colleague : When are you going to teach me how to make money?

Buy and hold teachable?


Read? Peter Lynch on His Secret to Superior Returns (2)

Last night; one ex-vendor and ex-colleague jio Uncle8888 for dinner at the famous Clementi Satay. Of course; when they have dinner with Uncle8888; one of the thing to talk about will be on investing.

This ex-vendor is amazed at Uncle8888's decades of holding multi-bagger stocks and seriously he wanted to learn from him on how to hold multi-bagger stocks over the next market cycles.

His biggest regret of unable to hold winning stocks and this he must learn from Uncle8888 for the next bear market.

Uncle8888 bought DBS at $7.53; but he bought DBS at lower than Uncle8888 at $6+.


The biggest regret is that he sold DBS far too early; otherwise he will be the one telling better story of high yield of 9% multi-bagger blue chip - DBS.

The Secret Behind Buy And Hold And Then Laughing To The Bank Revealed!


Read? Buy and Hold - Who sold you that idea?


How to make buy and hold works?

Those starfishes who had previously lim kopi with Uncle8888 have all heard directly the secret from the horse's mouth!


Read? Kep Corp : Bought @ $9.64 for Round 95

Read? SembCorp Industries (SCI): Bought @ $4.97 for Round 54

Read? DBS : Sold @ $19.38 (Re-presenting it in new format)



Which CPF Life Is Best For ME?

It is about ME!

Those CPF staff who were working on these plans are NOT dummy! There shouldn't be any significant difference based on different scenarios.






Zhuangzi told this story to his disciples to make a point.


Once a zookeeper said to his monkeys: "You'll get 3 bananas in the Morning and 4 in the Afternoon." 

All monkeys are upset. 

"OK. How about 4 bananas in Morning and 3 in the Afternoon?" 


Hearing this, the monkeys are content. 


Tuesday, 24 October 2017

Buy and Hold - Who sold you that idea?

Read? Buy and Hold - Who sold you that idea?

Who sold you that idea?

Hmm ...

Seduced by sexy yield and losing the moral compass!



Monday, 23 October 2017

DIY Annuity (Jan 2018 to Dec 2038) With CPF OA


Read? Is the new CPF Life plan ideal for you?


The report highlighted that with CPF's interest rate structure, CPF Life is able to provide an effective annuity rate of 7.1 per cent based on a $100,000 premium.

"This compares favourably with life annuities in most markets," stated the report. The annuity rate was calculated based on the ratio of annual payout to premium paid, for a male member born in 1962, or is 55 this year, who receives payouts at age 65.

PS: Payout is increasing at 2% every year.

Read? How I Accumulate $1M In CPF OA!


Uncle8888 DIY Annuity with his CPF OA is able to provide an effective annuity rate of 6.6% till Dec 2038!

Factoring 2.5% inflationary rate for annual escalating payouts from 2018 to 2038 (Age 81+) and can cover up to 85% of the highest historical annual expenses since 2002.
















Sunday, 22 October 2017

Did Those Personal Financial Investment Bloggers Really Tell You How They Reach Financial Independence???


Generate 10 to 15% CAGR on your investment; you are on your way to financial independence in XX years!

You believe in these "Gurus" commercial ads?

Chun bo?


Read? On "Gurus" - Becoming rich through the stock market


But; this is NOT the way how Uncle8888 reached his financial independence. Our compounding investment return is probably an accelerator to our financial independence. 

To depend just on compounding investment gains to reach financial independence is that NOT as easy as claimed by those bloggers in the investment blogosphere.

Generate 10 to 15% CAGR on your investment; you are on your way to financial independence in XX years!








Saturday, 21 October 2017

Never count the money we left on the table???

Singapore Man of Leisure20 October 2017 at 22:40:00 GMT+8

CW,

Entry price at $4.70?

That means bought around March 2009?

Saw the price went up above $10 and above...

And then see the 2 bagger disappear and have a near heart attack during Feb 2016 when Keppel went to $4.84...

Of course now happy that price recoverd back to $7.00 and above ;)


Moral of story?

Its always good to see the brighter side of things!

And never count the money we left on the table ;)



Uncle8888 counts everything relating to his investing to decimals precision hor!

It is 5.6% of the paper profits that he left on the table. He will slowly try to recover them in the next market cycle.



Is Too Much Cash As War Chest A Stabilizer Or Serious Drag In Our Investment Portfolio Performance???




Is waiting for GSS by Mr. Market good investing idea without sacrificing too much on investment portfortlio peformance?

How many measure their investment performance down to fine detail to know the real impact or we just accept the myth of rotting cash theory?




Friday, 20 October 2017

So What Is A Good Investment? (2)


Read? So What Is A Good Investment?


Are stocks relating to O &G considered as good investment?

In the market; there are always happy winners with their good investment and unhappy losers with their lousy investment.

To him, Kepcorp is his good investment and even better than his year end bonus!

What is the moral of the story?



Wednesday, 18 October 2017

CPFIS Is Not Our Larger War Chest


Read? How I Accumulate $1M In CPF OA!


Without additional year on year voluntarily top up to our CPF accounts; for most of us, CPFIS is not our larger war chest so we have to be wiser not to be trigger happy and anyhow fire our limited bullets at Mr. Market.


Don't Do This Unless You Can VERY WELL AFFORD it - Keep Upgrading Your Residential Home


Read JUST DO THIS ONE THING FOR RETIREMENT PLANNING


Read? The Tale Of Three Old Men In The Same Office Space (True Story)



The moral of the story - Don't end up as asset rich but cash flow not so wealthy in your retirement phase. For this NOT to happen; plan well ahead of your residential home in your retirement phase.


Sunday, 15 October 2017

Passive Investors The New Bad Guys???


Why I Don't "Invest" In P2P???


One simple financial reasoning in Rule of Investment: Yield Focus or Return On Invested Capital?

Read? Yield Focus Or Return On Invested Capital Focus??? (3)


Asymmetrical return on "invested" capital

One day, somehow we will make terribly and horribly mistakes and lose 100% of the invested capital. so P2P is no different!

Return on "invested" capital for P2P is from -100% to 0%

There is no such thing as a few P2P large winners in your life time of "investing" in P2P to cover all your P2P losses!




Saturday, 14 October 2017

Keppel Will Be Celebrating 50 Years in 2018


Read? Keppel celebrates 45 years (2)

Wah!

So fast five years will pass in 2018.

50th year anniversary is Diamond celebration and it is very important milestone of a company so shareholders are expecting some goodies to be given out to them.





So What Is A Good Investment?


Read? What Is A Good Investment?

Less Analyzing. More Investing - CW8888


How do Uncle8888 know whether his stocks are good or bad investment?

Of course; he cannot never forecast the stock price after Point X. Only those retail investors who are hardcore analysts themselves may like to think that they can analyze company's business into years away. 

Forecast the next few months is still very possible but over future economic and market cycles; it is damn hard!

Never mind!

Got Panadols to ease heartache. Okay lah!

This is how many retail investors who like to think on Yield Focus,

Read? Yield Focus Or Return On Invested Capital Focus??? (3)

One excellent example of retail "investors" who are absolute yield focus. They are those who smile at higher yield when they "invest" in P2P. 


Mr. Market will determine whether we are right or wrong according to how he dictates the future stock price movement.

Now he knows which are his good or bad investment after Point X across economic and market cycles.





















Thursday, 12 October 2017

Why I Don't Leverage To Up Size My Investing Capital???


For simple reason on money management. 

When Uncle8888 is horribly and terribly wrong; he can only lose 100% of those invested capitals; but if he is ever right and continues to be right his Return on those invested capitals is N x 100% over long run.

No need for emergency fund, buffer or whatsoever to meet margin calls! Just War Chest!


Profit margin : -100% to N x 100%

Yield on investment cost : 0% to XX%




Tuesday, 10 October 2017

Women Called Themselves Housewives. Men Don't Called Themselves Househusbands But Early Retirees???


Gender bias!!!

Women can proudly call themselves housewife or fill up on their occupation as Housewife; but don't recall reading any men calling themselves househusband; but they called themselves early retirees!




Seoul (2 to 8 Nov 17)


What has changed since retirement from full-time employment with limited annual leaves?

No more optimizing or maximizing itinerary!

Agar agar what to see and then goes with the flow of the day since we now have more time to spare. No hurry! 


Sunday, 8 October 2017

How I Accumulate $1M In CPF OA!


Year on year voluntary top up to CPF Accounts?

1. Mandatory CPF contributions as full-time employee


2. Becoming one patient and discipline CPFIS investor who is only active during STI bear markets

3. Compounding interests at CPF OA  2.5% rate


Read? More CPF investors beat guranteed risk-free returns in fiscal 2016

Read? One Uncommon Way To Top Up CPF OA Through CPFIS




Saturday, 7 October 2017

Yield Focus Or Return On Invested Capital Focus??? (3)


Read? Yield Focus Or Return On Invested Capital Focus??? (2)


Singapore Man of Leisure6 October 2017 at 23:31:00 GMT+8

CW,

Now that'a thinking like land owners :)


ReplyDelete


Read? Where Does The Money In The Stock Market Come From?

The earlier we clearly understood where does the money in the stock market come from; we can adapt our investing strategies in this Game to avoid other players from eating our lunch!


CW8888:

Doing something similar to developers like CPL. LOL!

Thinking like land owners!

Holding freehold "properties" for yield!

Infinite yield. Hosay liao!





Friday, 6 October 2017

Yield Focus Or Return On Invested Capital Focus??? (2)


Read? Yield Focus Or Return On Invested Capital Focus???

Read? REITs. Simply explained! (6) - Revisit


Developers who are off loading their matured properties into their REIT vehicles are good example of return on invested capital focus.


Thursday, 5 October 2017

S- REITs As Retirement Income For Cash Tight Retirees???


Investing is about 3Ms - Method, Mind and Money Management

One Starfish found out what was not covered at her paid investment course on Investing on S-REITs for income and learned something practical on money management at the price of Kopi O Kosong!

What wrong with S-REITs as retirement income for cash TIGHT retirees who are depending on investment income to fund living expenses?

































Hedge fund manager some call the next Warren Buffett owns nearly $1 billion of Puerto Rico's bonds

Seth Klarman, the value investing giant who draws comparisons to Warren Buffett, has a very large position in Puerto Rico's controversial debt.

Klarman's hedge fund, Baupost, owns $911 million of the island's bonds through Decagon Holdings entities, according to a July public court filing.

"The Baupost Group is a holder of COFINA bonds through the Decagon entities. Baupost regularly makes investments through subsidiary holding entities," Baupost spokeswoman Diana DeSocio wrote in an email.

COFINA stands for the Puerto Rico Sales Tax Financing Corp. that issues bonds.


....

Baupost has $30 billion of assets under management as of March 2017, according to the firm.

Klarman's fund has generated annual returns of 16.4 percent and $22.6 billion in net profit for clients since inception through 2015, according to a Morgan Creek Capital letter. Baupost's main fund posted a 'high single-digit' return last year.

The hedge fund manager has largely avoided controversy over his career and is often compared with Buffett for his disciplined investing philosophy and solid returns. As the political rhetoric heats up around what Wall Street is owed as Puerto Rico tries to recover from this tragedy, a negative spotlight could fall on owners of the controversial debt like Baupost.


That is likely something Klarman would not welcome since he is notoriously reclusive. He rarely appears publicly and used copies of his "Margin of Safety" investment book still sell for more than $700 online

Read? Hedge fund manager some call the next Warren Buffett owns nearly $1 billion of Puerto Rico's bonds

Klarman started with the three key underlying pillars of his investing approach:

1. Analyze the potential for loss before gain: "You want to focus on risk before you focus on returns. … A lot of it is focusing on multiple scenarios, what can go wrong? How much can you lose?"

2. Absolute over relative returns: "The world is oriented to relative performance. Everybody is an asset gatherer. ... By contrast we think wealthy individuals and established institutions because of their risk aversion are interested in absolute returns. If you're focused on absolute returns the idea of losing people's money becomes fairly abhorrent. … Your goal is not to lose less, your goal is to try to make money all the time, protect capital on the downside and still do well enough on the upside."


3. Forget macro investing, instead focus on individual investment ideas: "Most of the investment world has a top down orientation. They think about how is the economy going to do? And how are foreign currencies going to do? How are interest rates going to do?

 … My view is that is incredibly difficult to do. I don't know anybody with a really good long-term demonstrated record of success of macro forecasting."



One Year After Retirement From Full-time Job As Employee (2)


Read? One Year After Retirement From Full-time Job As Employee


Peter Lynch : "best of all, he concludes, “I can take real vacations without having to leave phone numbers.”

True!!!

Two things have happened after retirement when taking real vacations:

(1) Without having to leave phone numbers

Out of Office notification

I am away on overseas leave from XX/XX/XXXX to YY/YY/XXXX. If it is really urgent matters; you may wish to call me at XXXX XXXX; but I may be slow to respond. Thank you!


(2) No more backlog to clear after vacation or clearing shits!



How You Can Never Lose Money In Investing???


Learn from Peter Lynch!

One and only one method. The rest of any other methods written by anyone is just bullshit!


Read? Financial Wizard Peter Lynch Took Stock of His Life and Walked Away from a Million-Dollar Job



Who can break his performance record since 1990?



























Tuesday, 3 October 2017

Yield Focus Or Return On Invested Capital Focus???







After 17 years with this pile of records and his performance review indicated that he should be better off at return on invested capital focus camp for the next market cycle!

BTW, so far majority of personal financial investment bloggers in Singapore are in Yield focus camp. 

New dash board!

Including paper profits lost back to Mr. Market will remind him the execution of market timing is also critical.



One Year After Retirement From Full-time Job As Employee


Read? Six Months After Not Doing Anything To Increase GDP As Jobless Man! (3)


Immediately after his retirement on 30 Sep 2016; he followed up with routines to ensure he passed through the initial few months with actions and NOT by idleness and laziness.

Read? Complete walking one round the coast of Singapore and complete jogging all the Park connectors of Singapore


Somehow; one day on 15 may 2017; he received an offer for 8 HWW (Hours Work Week). A simple job with plenty of walking exercise on every Mondays and Thursday (any time from 11 AM to 6 PM to complete this simple job task. Uncle8888 takes less than 4 hours to complete each task with his power walk)


















With this 8 HWW;  he should also qualify for 2018 WIS as low income workforce. 

Likely he will continue as self-employed 8 HWW low income worker for awhile and getting paid at the same time for his weekly walking exercise. 

Since he has been power walking and climbing escalators at many MRT stations every weekdays; he now no longer need to jog the park connectors to burn body fat!

BTW, one of his neighbors said: "Your manager's pay not bad; why don't you continue working until 65?"






Singaporeans victims in Australian Ponzi scam


Read? Singaporeans victims in Australian Ponzi scam


The scheme had 981 investors from Singapore, 651 from Malaysia, 58 from Britain, 17 from continental Europe and 31 from Australia

Many Singapore victims The Straits Times spoke to were retirees, like Mr Chan, who declined to have their identities disclosed.

Mr Chan had put in $20,000 in 2015 through Singapore-based Macro Realty Developments. Funds were collected from investors over four payments in 2015 .

CW8888: This is how Yield Pigs were slaughtered and many more yield pigs are waiting eagerly to be slaughtered. Blame Government for not doing enough to educate yield pigs???

He said interest payable for the 12-month tenure varied between 14 per cent a year for sums up to $49,000 and 16 per cent for $50,000 and above.

"Those who invested $100,000 or more were given free trips to the site area in Australia," he added. He lodged a police report in March last year after Macro defaulted.

Police declined comment as investigations are ongoing.

Said a female corporate executive who had invested in the scheme for long-term gain: "I am distressed and devastated, and trusted too much in the system."

Yet, others pulled out their sums in time. One investor named Mr Ho parked A$40,000 with Macro Realty Developments after hearing Ms Macpherson promote the Newman Estate investment in 2013.

He told ST: "Macro Realty Developments guaranteed monthly returns in the project. For a few months, I got my money. And then the hiccups came."

Red flags were raised when the company told him anti-money laundering requirements by the Australian government would delay returns.

By 2015, he had opted out, pressing Macro Realty Developments to return his money. And it did.

"Unfortunately, other Singaporean investors who faced the same problems as I did were encouraged to reinvest their money on more pricey property developments for larger monthly returns," said Mr Ho.

Monday, 2 October 2017

Changes proposed to help build retirement savings


Thursday, 4 June 2015

Read? Baby Boomers in 1950s are going to sell their house for retirement!!!

Read? More may be able to transfer CPF savings to parents and grandparents

SINGAPORE - More people may soon be able to help their elders save for retirement.

Changes to the Central Provident Fund (CPF) Act have been proposed in Parliament to lower the minimum amount they must hold in their own CPF accounts before making transfers to their parents and grandparents.

Currently, CPF members must meet the prevailing Full Retirement Sum - which is $166,000 for CPF members aged 55 this year - before they can transfer extra savings to their parents' or grandparents' accounts.

Members aged 55 and above need to meet the retirement sum specified for their cohort.

Under the changes proposed by the Manpower Ministry (MOM) on Monday (Oct 2), CPF members will be able to make the transfers if they have at least the Basic Retirement Sum - which is half the full sum - and a sufficient property pledge or charge to make up the rest of the full sum.

The ministry said in a press statement that this change is part of enhancements "which aim to improve the retirement adequacy of CPF members". Last year, the threshold to make transfers to a spouse's CPF account was lowered to the Basic Retirement Sum, instead of the full sum.


CW8888

Look like Uncle8888's observation and what he knew from conversation with many of his peers in the last few years is getting momentum from the Government's concern on current parents' or grandparents' retirement adequacy. The next decade or 1.5 decades we may see flood of housing downgrade and rental vacancy. 



Secret Of Secret Behind Position Sizing???


RayNg1 October 2017 at 08:05:00 GMT+8

SMOL "If you tell your readers your 10 bagger Keppel or Sembawang is only 1000 shares each, they will go, "Cheh!" 
LOL!

--------------------------------

Yes, beside getting it right and hold, the sizing is also equally important. 



Position sizing?

Your account size really matters!

Account size?

Your earned income and saving rate really matters!

Earned income?

Your progressive career path really matters!

Progressive career?

Your bosses really matter!


Bosses?

Don't ever offend your bosses!



Sunday, 1 October 2017

Counting The Cost Of University Education at SUTD (6)


Read? Counting The Cost Of University Education at SUTD (5)


Year 1 & 2 (Apr 16 to Sep 17)


Position Sizing. Let The Winners Run. Having Some Fun On The Winners. Cap The Losers

Singapore Man of Leisure 29 September 2017 at 10:12:00 GMT+8

Readers out there who may want to ask CW out for kopi kosong, you may want to jio me along!

I play the role of "got shadow or not" verification ;)

Especially if you believe in the "clash of ideas".

Don't believe?

I'll show you.

Of all the highlights, CW, you left out the most important "HOW" bit:

"You want to let the winners run. When the fun ones get better, add to 'em, and that one winner."


If you tell your readers your 10 bagger Keppel or Sembawang is only 1000 shares each, they will go, "Cheh!"

LOL!

I hope this settles the question of concentration versus diversification ;)


CW8888

OK. OK. Now shows the most important "How" on When the fun ones get better, add to 'em, and that one "winner".


Of course, he was having fun until Mr. Market came to spoil the fun ones! :-(



Thursday, 16 October 2014
Read? Kep Corp : Bought @ $9.64 for Round 95


Monday, 13 October 2014
Read? SembCorp Industries (SCI): Bought @ $4.97 for Round 54


Friday, 31 March 2017
Read? DBS : Sold @ $19.38 (Re-presenting it in new format)




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